I appreciate the opportunity to listen in as two people with contrary views actually listened to each other.

Let me ask a question of Mags … and I’m not a controller either.

Don’t you not think that much of the FAA employee chaos we’ve all experienced in the past year and a half is directly related to the agency imposing new work rules on controllers?

Whether anyone likes it or not, FAA and NATCA did sign a document that insured collective bargaining rights for controllers 20 years ago. FAA arbitrarily lit a match to that agreement.

Like you, I do think controllers are angry, but with good reason.

They signed up for a job that included a union agreement and the agency pulled that carpet out from under them after they started work.

So tell me what the FAA folks you mentioned - Sturgell, Brown etc. - have to say about that. Axing the agreement and refusing any and all attempts to renegotiate a new one doesn’t sound like they are in touch with the issues at all.

But as DAB said too, there is more than just a single issue at hand, labor relations and staffing. Budget aside, if you want to improve labor relations and improve the system at the same time - I believe they go hand in hand - why not stick with the agreement you made?

You seem like a reasonable person to me, so I’m curious what the Washington types have to say about their refusal to stand behind the collective bargaining provisions they agreed to 20 years ago. That is not purely a budgetary issue. That’s a control issue and even folks on the outside of the agency believe that.

If this was an airline that violated a labor contract - and yes, I agree it is not - the employees would have struck long ago. Why should the FAA - and the government - be above the law? If the agency can refuse the labor provisions they agreed to long ago, why would you expect the controllers to abide by the “no strike,” oath they took?

Like the conversation you and DAB have been having, when people talk to each other, they hopefully learn to respect differing views. From where I’m sitting, it sure looks like FAA doesn’t want to hear from employees and simply wants to rule them.

Those kinds of rancorous labor relations can’t keep on forever. Surely even you must see that. Is everyone at the current FAA simply waiting for a new White House boss to set down a few updated guidelines before they make a move to work with the people they claim to care so much about?

Rob Mark

I guess I just wanted to give you some perspective from someone who has worked at HQ, but is not a 15 or above. In my job, I had to monitor some very high level conversations between the Administrator, Secretary and Laura Brown and I think you would be surprised at the level of concern they actually have for the controllers. Their hands are tied on a lot of budgetary issues, so it looks like they sometimes don’t care, but I believe they do. Bobby Sturgell is really a great person to work for and he does care. He is the type of boss who comes through the workspace and talks with you and takes the time to tell you he appreciates what you’re doing. I have seen him cut his lunch short in between to Congressional sessions to say good-bye to a and faa employee or contractor who is transferring. I am sure you can imagine how busy he is, so that meant a lot to all of us who work closely with him. Marion would do the same, but Bobby is more of a people person.

Take care and as part of the flying public, I do appreciate the job you guys do and I believe you earn your salaries. Keep em safe!

We couldn’t understand why that particular course of action was chosen until the last two years. Well here it is for the public. Impose work rules with a specific intent of making work difficult. That way the older, more experienced controllers will quickly retire leaving only B scale employees. AGAIN-COST SAVINGS.

Had the FAA chosen the morally correct and safe course of action we wouldn’t be in the crisis we are now. Overtime would still be taboo just like was in the old days. We would have 5 day work weeks like the rest America.

Despite our differences, you cannot sanely deny that the FAA 1-Planned this whole staffing shortage, and 2-Places more importance on saving a buck over the welfare of its employees and has deemed saving a buck more important than the safety of the flying public. Operational errors, deviations and near misses are at an all time high. Undeniable solid facts.

So to any civilian out there following this drawn out discussion, please accept this summary as I see it.

Controllers worry about safety of flying public first and foremost ALWAYS. We worry about being forced to work long work weeks because fatigue compounds. Those of us in front of scopes and manning tower cabs know that relates to decreased mental sharpness and acuity. We know that training an individual with little or no ATC experience only exacerbates this situation and compounds fatigue even further.

FAA speaks of managing a facility. FAA tells me to be thankful for my job and benefits. FAA sees me as whiner. FAA tells me to look for another profession because I am angry at the current state of affairs that is funded by my/your taxpayer dollars. FAA suggests I get stress counseling, see above. FAA tells me to be glad to be working overtime(even though its because they screwed up).FAA sees NATCA as a glorified PATCO.

NATCA has no credibility issues. Air Traffic Controller have no credibility issues. If we did, you would have heard of it by now.

The FAA on the hand has severe credibility issues. They range from pencil whipped flight inspections to the air traffic control system to the botched and ineffective privatization of the nations Flight Service Stations.

Draw you own conclusion folks. Next time your stuck in the terminal with a two hour “Air Traffic” delay remember this bbs. Recall who cried for safety and who called for effective management.

PS-Next time you hear an FAA spokesperson say “safety was never compromised”, find the pilots and passengers. Ask them…

MAGS it has been real. Ive enjoyed this discussion but its old fruitless. Im going to bed now so I dont stay in bed on my only day off. Peace

Oh, by the way, I have no office, I am a shift worker, I work overtime and appreciate the opportunity to work for the FAA and earn the salary I do. If I didn’t, I would find another position or profession so that I could enjoy life. It’s much too short to be angry.

You are right we could never agree, because I look on the bright side of things, am a positive person. You on the other hand accentuate the negative and look for any reason to whine. You have wonderful medical benefits, why don’t you explore your options and seek the therapy you are in dire need of. The demonic employer you work for offers you PAID sick and stress leave so that you can get better. Oh, but I bet that you have extended yourself financially and probaby woud not be able to manage your finances without the overtime compensation that you whine about.

Exactly what did NATCA blow? If you are referring to our last real contract, or green book, it was agreed to by the FAA. They signed off on it just like we did. Was it a good controller contract?…you bet it was! Due to people like John Carr. His tireless efforts in dealing with an unrelenting and scheming employer is what led to his demise. Wrong place at the wrong time.

6 day work weeks are 6 day work weeks. Doesnt matter if you work at A80(Atlanta tracon), N90(New York Tracon), or even little old DAB. Time away from family is time away from family.

ATCS 1985-present…2 OD’s, no OE’S.

You are right though. The count is creeping up all around me. Good people Ive known for years are having separation errors because they are tired and/or training kids that have no business being at a busy TRACON/Tower. Yes we are busy too. Grab a headset and come on by. This time of year is perfect.
The FAA counts them as actual controllers to Congress. The reality is they are 3-5 year projects IF they even make it. All they are doing is increasing our fatigue.

This whole disagreement started with mandatory OT and controllers working 6 day works weeks. We started dialogging 10 days ago. Im still working mandatory OT, 6 days per week. Are you? Think about that Friday when clock strikes 5pm and lock up your office.

People like you and people like me will never agree. Please refrain from attempting to stain our reputation…”safety at any cost”

Yes Im angry. You should be too. The FAA’s focus is solely on cost cutting. If the flying public only knew! It should be on SAFETY. The real spirit of FAA’s protocol has been highlighted in the media with airline flight inspections. Im convinced that if there was no NATCA to speak up and call the FAA to the carpet when something looks wrong, the ATC system would be just as corrupt and dangerous.

As to proficiency, reading a manual is different from understanding the intent and applying it. If you are an OM or FLM, please do not plug in and work traffic between 7am and 2am. It would embarrassing to decertify yourself.

Yes its true that I am always striving to be better.

There are no minimum wage jobs available in the DAB area. All the new hires are working 2 or 3 jobs in addition to ATC to stay off food stamps.

How sad that controllers promoted to supervisors and managers forget where they came came from. Please listen to yourself. You must remember working traffic. Your post reads of “managing a facility”. Is that really your number one priority? Try managing SAFETY.

Feel free to respond. You are doing on work time anyway.

Sounds like you need a good shrink and a different profession. Life is too short to be as angry as you are………….

Maybe you could find a less stressful position at your local Walmart or Home Depot where you will be adequately compensated for your efforts.

Thank you for taking the time to actually investigate these claims. It is easy to simply swallow what the FAA says because their messages are full of twisted half truth and conviluted messages. But by digging deeper, you’ve exposed merely a fraction of the nonsense and malay we all deal with on a daily basis. Carry on.

It quotes FAA Spokesman Jim Peters as saying, “If any controller at the Philadelphia Airport believes that these procedures are unsafe, they should look for work elsewhere.”

And also, “If they don’t like working for FAA, they should reconsider their line of work.”

These are specious and undeserved comments. Our Air Traffic Controller deserve better than that kind of mindless pap.

We have people so tired of it here that 3 people split 1 overtime shift today to manage family functions.

There have been so many astounding comments here that I hate to single anyone out, but I will anyway.

“A80″ at ATL is my man only because that is a facility that stands out in my head as one where the volunteer list mentioned in the GAO report was extremely high.

So now we find out that the volunteer time at ATL is all mandatory. But it’s considered volunteer because you knew when you hired on that you might be called. Is that about right?

I do have a call in to the folks at GAO as well because I’d like to know where their data came from but it seems clear that too came from FAA.

The GAO report did make a point of explaining that the FAA does a poor job of tracking data, so we don’t know that anything we see is acuurate any longer.

So my apologies to all of you folks if it looked like I was poking at you about this OT issue.

Something for sure looked odd and I guess we know now what it is.

Seems like we are back to where we were a few weeks ago when I began linking my overall air safety concerns to tired controllers.

Jeff Martin said above, “The end game is that fatigued controllers are not as safe.”

The game of how they got to the overtime situation - volunteer or mandatory - is really irrelevant.

The point is that the system is obviously short staffed and it’s only going to get worse.

Rob Mark