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	<title>Comments on: Kick or Stick Your Airline Career; What Would You Do?</title>
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	<link>http://www.jetwhine.com/2008/03/kick-or-stick-your-airline-career-what-would-you-do/</link>
	<description>Aviation buzz and bold opinion</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 17 May 2008 10:43:51 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Marty</title>
		<link>http://www.jetwhine.com/2008/03/kick-or-stick-your-airline-career-what-would-you-do/#comment-30169</link>
		<dc:creator>Marty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 18:43:43 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>As usual in this business, timing is everything.  At 30 years in this career, I gave up 20 years at my legacy carrier to become a freight dog.  I sleep a lot better, and second year pay was more than what I made as an f/o (former captain) when I left.  But all is slowing now and four airlines worth of pilots are out there to add to the competition for jobs.  I firmly believe a major labor showdown is coming, outcome unknown.  They took a good portion of my pay, all my pension, and in some cases now seniority is decimated (see USAirways arbitration), so what's left except to burn the place down if I was still there?  Major industry upheaval is coming again if oil stays where it is, and the coming pilot shortage may be mitigated by cabotage if foreign pilots are willing to fly here for pennies compared to our salaries.  But during those sleepless nights when liquidation of my company seemed inevitable, my soul-searching revealed that for me I still love to fly,and this is still the best job in the world if I could sustain a living at it. Ride it out until something better comes along, keep yourself sharp and keep looking around this ever-changing business.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As usual in this business, timing is everything.  At 30 years in this career, I gave up 20 years at my legacy carrier to become a freight dog.  I sleep a lot better, and second year pay was more than what I made as an f/o (former captain) when I left.  But all is slowing now and four airlines worth of pilots are out there to add to the competition for jobs.  I firmly believe a major labor showdown is coming, outcome unknown.  They took a good portion of my pay, all my pension, and in some cases now seniority is decimated (see USAirways arbitration), so what&#8217;s left except to burn the place down if I was still there?  Major industry upheaval is coming again if oil stays where it is, and the coming pilot shortage may be mitigated by cabotage if foreign pilots are willing to fly here for pennies compared to our salaries.  But during those sleepless nights when liquidation of my company seemed inevitable, my soul-searching revealed that for me I still love to fly,and this is still the best job in the world if I could sustain a living at it. Ride it out until something better comes along, keep yourself sharp and keep looking around this ever-changing business.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott R.</title>
		<link>http://www.jetwhine.com/2008/03/kick-or-stick-your-airline-career-what-would-you-do/#comment-29693</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott R.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 21:56:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jetwhine.com/2008/03/kick-or-stick-your-airline-career-what-would-you-do/#comment-29693</guid>
		<description>You will have to do what is right for you.  It is unfortunate to have to consider a job change after all you have accomplished.

I'm glad I did not get hired when I was originally interested in an airline career.  Luckily for me, I did not have enough time when I was applying at the majors around 2000 or so.  By the time I had the flight time, I wasn't interested anymore and couldn't have afforded a career change even if I had been.

I'm thankful now I never got an airline job, as well as a handful of other flying jobs I thought I wanted but never got.  Corporate flying has been rewarding and it is where I plan to stay.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You will have to do what is right for you.  It is unfortunate to have to consider a job change after all you have accomplished.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m glad I did not get hired when I was originally interested in an airline career.  Luckily for me, I did not have enough time when I was applying at the majors around 2000 or so.  By the time I had the flight time, I wasn&#8217;t interested anymore and couldn&#8217;t have afforded a career change even if I had been.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m thankful now I never got an airline job, as well as a handful of other flying jobs I thought I wanted but never got.  Corporate flying has been rewarding and it is where I plan to stay.</p>
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		<title>By: Louis</title>
		<link>http://www.jetwhine.com/2008/03/kick-or-stick-your-airline-career-what-would-you-do/#comment-29452</link>
		<dc:creator>Louis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Mar 2008 14:24:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jetwhine.com/2008/03/kick-or-stick-your-airline-career-what-would-you-do/#comment-29452</guid>
		<description>Rob:
 
This pilot must be in the top 30% of the pilot seniority list. He must be earning about $120,000 per year plus international override.  The company puts 15% of his salary away each year on his behalf.  If his was the only airline in the world and he had no comparisons to make, would he still be discontented?  
 
He also would make a lot more money as a harbor pilot (boat captain) or a major league umpire.  If he had gone to medical school and decided to specialize in orthopedic surgery and completed his four year internship and residency followed by a one-year fellowship, he could get an offer to start at about $450,000 per year, perhaps in Honolulu at the ripe old age of 33.
 
Jumping to the bottom of another list is risky.  It appears the freight airlines offer much more job security (and presently a lot more money), but they will phase out their three-man aircraft and combined with the age 65 rule, he would move slowly up their list.  FedEx and UPS have already stopped hiring. 

The freight airlines offer more money now which is frustrating to him and it's difficult to determine if the passenger airline pilots will be able to recover to the freight airline pilot pay level, given the financial losses of the former and the profits of the latter.  
 
Conversely, the freight airlines will be the first to convert to a one-man cockpit or even a UAV to carry freight.  The USAF estimates a good percentage of their bomber aircraft will be unmanned within the next 15 to 20 years, so the concept is not that far-fetched.
 
I would stick around for the union showdown with management, for there surely is one on the way.
 
Louis</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rob:</p>
<p>This pilot must be in the top 30% of the pilot seniority list. He must be earning about $120,000 per year plus international override.  The company puts 15% of his salary away each year on his behalf.  If his was the only airline in the world and he had no comparisons to make, would he still be discontented?  </p>
<p>He also would make a lot more money as a harbor pilot (boat captain) or a major league umpire.  If he had gone to medical school and decided to specialize in orthopedic surgery and completed his four year internship and residency followed by a one-year fellowship, he could get an offer to start at about $450,000 per year, perhaps in Honolulu at the ripe old age of 33.</p>
<p>Jumping to the bottom of another list is risky.  It appears the freight airlines offer much more job security (and presently a lot more money), but they will phase out their three-man aircraft and combined with the age 65 rule, he would move slowly up their list.  FedEx and UPS have already stopped hiring. </p>
<p>The freight airlines offer more money now which is frustrating to him and it&#8217;s difficult to determine if the passenger airline pilots will be able to recover to the freight airline pilot pay level, given the financial losses of the former and the profits of the latter.  </p>
<p>Conversely, the freight airlines will be the first to convert to a one-man cockpit or even a UAV to carry freight.  The USAF estimates a good percentage of their bomber aircraft will be unmanned within the next 15 to 20 years, so the concept is not that far-fetched.</p>
<p>I would stick around for the union showdown with management, for there surely is one on the way.</p>
<p>Louis</p>
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		<title>By: Josh</title>
		<link>http://www.jetwhine.com/2008/03/kick-or-stick-your-airline-career-what-would-you-do/#comment-29299</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Mar 2008 12:37:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jetwhine.com/2008/03/kick-or-stick-your-airline-career-what-would-you-do/#comment-29299</guid>
		<description>I normally don't respond to any threads but after reading this I thought that I would put my two cents forward. Leaving a career that you love is always a huge decision and at the end of the day, you have to do what's best for you. That aside, can anyone give a date or a date range where pilots have been happy with their working conditions? I'm not trying to be a smart ass here but seriously...
After working for many years in a SOCC centre of a legacy carrier, I saw first hand how crews abused thier collective agreements and didn't show any respect to the people on the ground. I must be clear and say that there are alot of great crews out there but unfortuneatley it's the crews that abuse the system that make it bad for everyone else. Pilot CA got out of hand in the 80's and 90's. Everyone wanted to one up each other. With the LCC and 911, it all came tumbling down fast. There is not one person in this industry that hasn't been affected by it. I guess what I am trying to say..is it really such a bad gig?? You may not be making as much as you once were but come on...is the grass really greener on the otherside?? As to your comments about the company caring more about the "business plan"...well without a business plan there is no future. Instead of fighting with management work with them. Costs are killing this industry. It's not just management. The sooner you guys recognize that the sooner we can adjust our business model.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I normally don&#8217;t respond to any threads but after reading this I thought that I would put my two cents forward. Leaving a career that you love is always a huge decision and at the end of the day, you have to do what&#8217;s best for you. That aside, can anyone give a date or a date range where pilots have been happy with their working conditions? I&#8217;m not trying to be a smart ass here but seriously&#8230;<br />
After working for many years in a SOCC centre of a legacy carrier, I saw first hand how crews abused thier collective agreements and didn&#8217;t show any respect to the people on the ground. I must be clear and say that there are alot of great crews out there but unfortuneatley it&#8217;s the crews that abuse the system that make it bad for everyone else. Pilot CA got out of hand in the 80&#8217;s and 90&#8217;s. Everyone wanted to one up each other. With the LCC and 911, it all came tumbling down fast. There is not one person in this industry that hasn&#8217;t been affected by it. I guess what I am trying to say..is it really such a bad gig?? You may not be making as much as you once were but come on&#8230;is the grass really greener on the otherside?? As to your comments about the company caring more about the &#8220;business plan&#8221;&#8230;well without a business plan there is no future. Instead of fighting with management work with them. Costs are killing this industry. It&#8217;s not just management. The sooner you guys recognize that the sooner we can adjust our business model.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Mark</title>
		<link>http://www.jetwhine.com/2008/03/kick-or-stick-your-airline-career-what-would-you-do/#comment-29275</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Mar 2008 02:06:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jetwhine.com/2008/03/kick-or-stick-your-airline-career-what-would-you-do/#comment-29275</guid>
		<description>Grant's comment just made me hit the keyboard again but his supply and demand issue really rings true, at least from a textbook economic sense.

But look at some of the regional airlines that are absolutely seeing a pilot shortage right now. Some can't even staff flights. Heck American Airlines and United both have cancelled flights because they don't have enough pilots and they still treat people like dogs.

I think it will take more than a pilot shortage to fix this kind of thing. It will probably take a prolonged strike and even then, management will be reluctant to agree to anything.

While the folks in the office often call the pilots a bunch of whiners (Whine ... mmm, I have to figure out a way to use that word) they were often jealous at the same time that they couldn't become aviators.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Grant&#8217;s comment just made me hit the keyboard again but his supply and demand issue really rings true, at least from a textbook economic sense.</p>
<p>But look at some of the regional airlines that are absolutely seeing a pilot shortage right now. Some can&#8217;t even staff flights. Heck American Airlines and United both have cancelled flights because they don&#8217;t have enough pilots and they still treat people like dogs.</p>
<p>I think it will take more than a pilot shortage to fix this kind of thing. It will probably take a prolonged strike and even then, management will be reluctant to agree to anything.</p>
<p>While the folks in the office often call the pilots a bunch of whiners (Whine &#8230; mmm, I have to figure out a way to use that word) they were often jealous at the same time that they couldn&#8217;t become aviators.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob Mark</title>
		<link>http://www.jetwhine.com/2008/03/kick-or-stick-your-airline-career-what-would-you-do/#comment-29273</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Mar 2008 02:00:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jetwhine.com/2008/03/kick-or-stick-your-airline-career-what-would-you-do/#comment-29273</guid>
		<description>I was lucky enough to work for some pretty decent folks when I flew for the original Midway Airlines.

Now of course I don't think I'll say much about their intelligence since they drove us into bankruptcy and eventually shut us down.

Most of us lost much less than our author here, some vacation and other items. 

But to the issue of the higher ups collecting, it hit us squarley between the eyes when they paid a few managers $25 or $30K to hang around after we shut down to clean things up.

What really galled all of us is that these folks never gave a second thought to what the line employees had lost.

We all did get money about six or seven years later from the bankruptcy court. As a pilot my take was $88.

And our CEO David Hinson? He went on to become the Administrator of the FAA in DC.

Go figure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was lucky enough to work for some pretty decent folks when I flew for the original Midway Airlines.</p>
<p>Now of course I don&#8217;t think I&#8217;ll say much about their intelligence since they drove us into bankruptcy and eventually shut us down.</p>
<p>Most of us lost much less than our author here, some vacation and other items. </p>
<p>But to the issue of the higher ups collecting, it hit us squarley between the eyes when they paid a few managers $25 or $30K to hang around after we shut down to clean things up.</p>
<p>What really galled all of us is that these folks never gave a second thought to what the line employees had lost.</p>
<p>We all did get money about six or seven years later from the bankruptcy court. As a pilot my take was $88.</p>
<p>And our CEO David Hinson? He went on to become the Administrator of the FAA in DC.</p>
<p>Go figure.</p>
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		<title>By: Grant</title>
		<link>http://www.jetwhine.com/2008/03/kick-or-stick-your-airline-career-what-would-you-do/#comment-29272</link>
		<dc:creator>Grant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Mar 2008 01:58:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jetwhine.com/2008/03/kick-or-stick-your-airline-career-what-would-you-do/#comment-29272</guid>
		<description>Your biggest responsibility is to look out for number one.  In an ideal world, looking out for the team and looking out for number one would be one in the same.

When the coach no longer considers himself one of the team, you'll never be considered as such.

Unfortunately, what the industry needs is a pilot shortage.  A big one.  Companies are going to have to recreate the teamwork environment as part of a way to make the job look attractive again, not to mention increased pay, benefits and overall working conditions.

You have to do what's best for you.  If I were in your shoes, and money didn't play a role, I'd kick.

Of course if you need every cent of your paycheck, you're in a bit of a corner.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your biggest responsibility is to look out for number one.  In an ideal world, looking out for the team and looking out for number one would be one in the same.</p>
<p>When the coach no longer considers himself one of the team, you&#8217;ll never be considered as such.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, what the industry needs is a pilot shortage.  A big one.  Companies are going to have to recreate the teamwork environment as part of a way to make the job look attractive again, not to mention increased pay, benefits and overall working conditions.</p>
<p>You have to do what&#8217;s best for you.  If I were in your shoes, and money didn&#8217;t play a role, I&#8217;d kick.</p>
<p>Of course if you need every cent of your paycheck, you&#8217;re in a bit of a corner.</p>
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		<title>By: jon regas</title>
		<link>http://www.jetwhine.com/2008/03/kick-or-stick-your-airline-career-what-would-you-do/#comment-29266</link>
		<dc:creator>jon regas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Mar 2008 23:46:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jetwhine.com/2008/03/kick-or-stick-your-airline-career-what-would-you-do/#comment-29266</guid>
		<description>Ernest K. Gann left American Airlines for "the steamship airline"...book , "Fate is the Hunter".

And he ended up flying puerto ricans to New York.

Read the book, you can't win against "the numbers".</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ernest K. Gann left American Airlines for &#8220;the steamship airline&#8221;&#8230;book , &#8220;Fate is the Hunter&#8221;.</p>
<p>And he ended up flying puerto ricans to New York.</p>
<p>Read the book, you can&#8217;t win against &#8220;the numbers&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Mal Gormley</title>
		<link>http://www.jetwhine.com/2008/03/kick-or-stick-your-airline-career-what-would-you-do/#comment-29256</link>
		<dc:creator>Mal Gormley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Mar 2008 20:54:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jetwhine.com/2008/03/kick-or-stick-your-airline-career-what-would-you-do/#comment-29256</guid>
		<description>Kick &#38; Become a Freight Dog. A buddy of mine nearby LOVES flying for FredEx. No more fickle, cranky pax to worry about. Case closed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kick &amp; Become a Freight Dog. A buddy of mine nearby LOVES flying for FredEx. No more fickle, cranky pax to worry about. Case closed.</p>
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		<title>By: Edmonds</title>
		<link>http://www.jetwhine.com/2008/03/kick-or-stick-your-airline-career-what-would-you-do/#comment-29250</link>
		<dc:creator>Edmonds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Mar 2008 19:33:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jetwhine.com/2008/03/kick-or-stick-your-airline-career-what-would-you-do/#comment-29250</guid>
		<description>Let me preface my comment by saying I am not a pilot or associated with aviation in any way. Just a a fascinated spectator...

I personally think it's ridiculous the way the airlines treat their pilots. I learn what I can about the airline industry through books, magazines and websites like this one, and the things the airlines have put their staff through in the past 10 - 15 years is atrocious. As a "civilian," I am wholly impressed by the skill, talent, and dedication displayed by the men and women who consistently and safely pilot the thousands of planes that are in the sky at any given moment, and think they should be appreciated and fairly compensated. While the executives collect their outrageous salaries and bonuses (which they arguably put in a lot less time and hard work to earn than those they oversee), they treat the talent who actually fly the planes like common easily-replaced bus drivers (no offense meant to bus drivers, just trying to make a point!).

As the article implies, upper-level management's pleas that everyone must sacrifice to ensure survival ring hollow when their own reward does not reflect the lean times they insist are upon the industry. They should be ashamed, but never will be, as their primary interest is lining their own pockets, not making sure those who do the actual work are taken care of.

Sadly, most of what I've just said could apply to any number of industries. It's the way business works, and probably won't change anytime soon (especially since those in the best position to change these things are the same who would suffer most if things WERE to change). The higher-ups ride along on the backs of the underlings, allowing them to do the real work while they attend their "business" golf outings and "meetings" in the Bahamas, all while getting paid so much more to do so much less.

Every time I hear a jet overhead and look to the sky in hopes to catch a glimpse and marvel at the technology and how far we've come, I feel a pang of regret that I'm not able to be one of the lucky few with the knowhow and skill to pilot such magnificent machines. Then I usually think about the other aspects of the job that aren't as desirable (like those mentioned in the article) and realize that I sadly probably wouldn't be willing to take the bad with the good.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let me preface my comment by saying I am not a pilot or associated with aviation in any way. Just a a fascinated spectator&#8230;</p>
<p>I personally think it&#8217;s ridiculous the way the airlines treat their pilots. I learn what I can about the airline industry through books, magazines and websites like this one, and the things the airlines have put their staff through in the past 10 - 15 years is atrocious. As a &#8220;civilian,&#8221; I am wholly impressed by the skill, talent, and dedication displayed by the men and women who consistently and safely pilot the thousands of planes that are in the sky at any given moment, and think they should be appreciated and fairly compensated. While the executives collect their outrageous salaries and bonuses (which they arguably put in a lot less time and hard work to earn than those they oversee), they treat the talent who actually fly the planes like common easily-replaced bus drivers (no offense meant to bus drivers, just trying to make a point!).</p>
<p>As the article implies, upper-level management&#8217;s pleas that everyone must sacrifice to ensure survival ring hollow when their own reward does not reflect the lean times they insist are upon the industry. They should be ashamed, but never will be, as their primary interest is lining their own pockets, not making sure those who do the actual work are taken care of.</p>
<p>Sadly, most of what I&#8217;ve just said could apply to any number of industries. It&#8217;s the way business works, and probably won&#8217;t change anytime soon (especially since those in the best position to change these things are the same who would suffer most if things WERE to change). The higher-ups ride along on the backs of the underlings, allowing them to do the real work while they attend their &#8220;business&#8221; golf outings and &#8220;meetings&#8221; in the Bahamas, all while getting paid so much more to do so much less.</p>
<p>Every time I hear a jet overhead and look to the sky in hopes to catch a glimpse and marvel at the technology and how far we&#8217;ve come, I feel a pang of regret that I&#8217;m not able to be one of the lucky few with the knowhow and skill to pilot such magnificent machines. Then I usually think about the other aspects of the job that aren&#8217;t as desirable (like those mentioned in the article) and realize that I sadly probably wouldn&#8217;t be willing to take the bad with the good.</p>
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